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How to Tell Tales: the Writing of Women's Stories
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Welcome!,
Getting Started |
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| Sandra
Worth |
| Posted: 26
Feb - 10:56 pm |
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Discussion Leader
Group: Discussion Leaders
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Member No.: 62
Joined: 4-February 04
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Hi
All!
I'm Sandra Worth and I'd like to welcome
you to this discussion of Womens History
Month sponsored by Trivium Publishing (Thanks,
Tamara!). I'm thrilled to be here and I
look forward to meeting you and enjoying
an exciting exchange of views on the telling
of women's tales.
You can read my bio in the Introduction posted by Brian Wainwright,
but in short, I'm the author of The Rose of York: Love & War,
an historical novel on the life of Richard III and his love for
Anne Neville. What I thought I would do to get us started is
to outline the scope of my discussion. I have four topics that
I thought might prove interesting, and I'll post one on each
Wednesday in March except the last, viz. 3rd, 10th, 17th, and
24th. The outline follows below.
Of course, if there's anything you wish addressed, which I haven't
included here, please let us all know! I'm sure that any of us
on the panel would be delighted to incorporate it into our discussion.
Here it goes! --
Discussion # -
1. Intro: Story-telling in general. What is a story? What makes
a good story? What makes a woman’s story? What makes a
man’s story? What writers need to know.
2. Real people versus story-people, what’s the difference?
The 'X' factor: What the author brings to the story.
3. Cooking up a good historical novel: How much history, how
much spice? More 'X' factor: What the author brings to history.
4 Love: Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, does it really
matter how you love?
Looking forward to meeting you soon,
Sandra
Sandra Worth
"History
Worth Reading"
The Rose of York: Love & War
Currently Nominated for the 2003 Reviewers International Award
Winner of three pre-publication Awards
www.sandraworth.com |
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| vmansellees |
| Posted: 29
Feb - 08:19 pm |
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Joined: 29-February 04
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Hello
Sandra - great to read your blurb - I am
very interested in historical novels as well
as non fiction and how women are/have been
portrayed so am looking forward to the topics
that you intend posting.
cheers - Virginia
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| BrianW |
| Posted: 01
Mar - 03:16 pm |
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Discussion Leader
Group: Discussion Leaders
Posts: 5
Member No.: 60
Joined: 1-February 04
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Hi!
I'm Brian Wainwright, and my new novel about
Constance of York Within the Fetterlock will
be published by your sponsors Trivium Publishing
very shortly. Enough of the commercial. 
As the only man among the Discussion Leaders
I'm not sure whether I should play court
jester, devil's advocate, or just duck.
Anyway, it's nice to be here, and an honour
to be asked.
I don't want to propose any new topics yet as I think Sandra's
suggested topics are an excellent armature on which to build
a lot of discussion. However, a couple of random thoughts I'd
like to throw in for you to chew over. 
Given that we would probably all agree that the Victorians created
an unrealistic stereotype of medieval women in their fiction,
are we in danger of creating an equally unrealistic - if different
- stereotype to suit our own century?
Secondly, how far should writers strive to achieve historical
accuracy? How far does it affect your enjoyment of the story?
How do we face up to the fact that medieval and early modern
people (even women!) were not often PC by our standards?
Best regards to all
Brian Wainwright |
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| WendyJ |
| Posted: 01
Mar - 04:40 pm |
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Discussion Leader
Group: Discussion Leaders
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Member No.: 61
Joined: 2-February 04
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G'day
all! Just read the posts from Brian and Sandra
and I'm not surprised to discover we ponder
the same questions.
Anyhow - here's my post!
Some one once asked me why I write about
the Tudor period. A lot of it has to do
with my childhood, and especially my father.
He was English, and had a great love of
his country’s history. Dad gifted
me with his love of history, and story-telling.
At ten, the same time I discovered Elizabeth the First, I decided
dad was Henry VIII – reincarnated. He not only looked like
him, but also had a temper of Tudor proportions, with a love
of food more suited to a Renaissance king. He also welded a mean
axe when he ‘beheaded’ the *chook* for the family’s
Sunday lunch.
Dad never hid the fact that his only son was of far more value
to him than his three daughters; I so empathized with Henry VIII’s
daughter Elizabeth! As an often unhappy child and teenager, I
held onto her story of survival. I believed if she could win
through to victory, so could I.
It was a man's world in Tudor times, with most women were regarded
as little more than property by their families – yet many
Tudor women still managed to shape history. I don’t think
I’ll ever stop being inspired by their stories!
Under the guise of writing historical fiction, I write to make
sense of my life. Not long ago, I was listening to Ken Burns
talk about why he made his historical documentaries. He spoke
about losing his mother at ten; a friend told him this explained
why his life’s work had been about bringing back the dead
to life. But for me, history helps me live my life now. I look
back to look forward. At the moment, I’m writing a novel
about Catherine of Aragon; since my first novel was about Anne
Boleyn, I thought I might as well tackle the stories of Henry’s
remaining wives in my next novels!
Questions I’ve pondered as a writer are the ones I thought
I’d like see also discussed during WHM:
Historical fiction: what is it exactly?
Do historical fiction writers owe respect to the long dead? What
about when it gets in the way of their story? The *Political
Correctness* of our own age – should we apply that to our
historical fiction? Why are women’s stories so important
to many fiction writers?
Popular and literary fiction - what makes a novel one instead
of the other?
There is one last question that may prove interesting for Brian
Wainwright and me to bring to the discussions jointly. Is it
difficult to step into the POV of a character opposite to a writer’s
our own gender? In what ways does that affect our story-telling?
Best!
Wendy
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Wendy J. Dunn, author of DEAR
HEART, HOW LIKE YOU THIS? Awarded the ABPA 2003 Glyph for
Best Adult Fiction.
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| Sandra
Worth |
| Posted: 01
Mar - 06:33 pm |
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Discussion Leader
Group: Discussion Leaders
Posts: 4
Member No.: 62
Joined: 4-February 04
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<<Hello
Sandra - great to read your blurb - I am
very interested in historical novels as well
as non fiction and how women are/have been
portrayed so am looking forward to the topics
that you intend posting.
cheers - Virginia >>
Hi Virginia!
Good to meet you
Thanks for your email. I think we're going to have a lively discussion
here, judging from Brian's and Wendy's posts today -- lots to
talk about
Now that you know so much about us, would you also like to tell
us a bit about yourself-- your own interests, and what brought
you to Women's History Forum? If you're pursuing writing as a
career, where are you in your own writing, what are your goals,
and what are you hoping to get out of this workshop?
Virginia, if you're not writing an historical, are you just interested
in historicals generally--like how the research is done, how
we choose our time periods, how we weigh the details to include
or exclude, etc.? It might help us to know that. Then we can
angle our replies to more accurately to address your interests.
I think Brian raises a very interesting question here --<<Secondly,
how far should writers strive to achieve historical accuracy?
How far does it affect your enjoyment of the story? How do we
face up to the fact that medieval and early modern people (even
women!) were not often PC by our standards?>>
I had to battle that initially -- it was probably the most difficult
aspect of writing my novel, viz. How much history to include?
Will I kill the reader's interest? Can I make the modern reader
understand why the historical figure did what he/she did when
norms are so different today...
If you're a writer, you'll probbaly want to know how we dealt
with this in our own novels, and if you're strictly a reader,
WE'LL want to know what YOU think anout all this
The fact that you obviously read a good bit of non-fiction, which
means historical texts, probably implies a higher level of tolerance
for historical detail than is the norm, Virginia, am I right?
...
Looking forward to lots more on all this tomorrow,
Best,
Sandra
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| BrianW |
| Posted: 02
Mar - 01:43 pm |
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Discussion Leader
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Member No.: 60
Joined: 1-February 04
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A
lot of interesting stuff already. 
I don't know where to start so I'll try
with Wendy's issue about writing with a
main character of the opposite gender.
I suppose my theory is that a writer (unless
writing about their own experiences) needs
to have empathy with the characters, and
some grounding in the culture or set of
circumstances in which they are existing.
Gender is only one of a number of issues.
After all, I'm not a medieval aristocrat,
either. 
Aside from that I would much rather write
about a woman I find interesting than about
a man who bores me. As a writer, I need
all the encouragement I can get from the
people queuing up at my ear for their story
to be told. It so happens that the first
two books I have published have centred
on women - though there's a fair bit of
male POV in Fetterlock. The third
book will be a lot more "male centred" but
there is already a very significant woman
in the book and I am using a fair bit of
her POV.
I think one can exaggerate the gender differences in some aspects.
Many of us, if not all, know how it feels to be bereaved, or
betrayed by a lover or relative. The feelings are essentially
the same - it's the reaction that (because of cultural or biological
differences; I'm not going to argue that one with you lot!
) tends to be distinct. So, given life experience, it should
be able to write about these things.
Finally, as I said in my introduction, I actually like women
and find them interesting as people. A lot of men don't. This
is not to imply that such men are gay; far from it in many cases.
It's just that they keep women in a distinct box - like football,
for example. Whereas my wife is my best friend as well as my
lover. For me, writing about women and their challenges is interesting which
is a big help when you're producing a novel about one! In some
ways the very handicaps that medieval women had to face and overcome
makes their POV more challenging and interesting for a writer.
They can't, in the last resort, just get out their battle-axe
and brain somebody.
Regards
Brian |
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| Sandra
Worth |
| Posted: 03
Mar - 04:25 pm |
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Discussion Leader
Group: Discussion Leaders
Posts: 4
Member No.: 62
Joined: 4-February 04
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Hi
All,
Virginia, we didn't hear from you, so may
I assume that the topics we're covering
suit you fine?
Today is Wednesday, so I am posting my
first email of the four that I outlined
on Sunday.
Here goes--
The Telling of Women’s Stories
Discussion
# 1- Intro: Story-telling in general. What
is a story? What makes a good story? What
makes a woman’s story? What makes
a man’s story? What a writer needs
to know.
Story-telling is as old as man himself and goes back to Neolithic,
perhaps Paleolithic times. Tired after a hard day battling woolly
mammoths, Neanderthal man listened to stories around a campfire,
and was kept awake only by suspense. What is going to happen
next?
Playing on her husband’s curiosity, Scheherazade spun such
suspense into her story-telling that she kept her husband wondering
the same thing—for a thousand and one nights! By the time
her story ended, he was too much in love with her to put her
to death.
Both Neanderthal man and Scheherazade told their stories in their
own voice. For much of history, story telling was an oral tradition
and only changed as reading was discovered and literacy took
hold in a savage world. But the suspense element has never changed.
It is the one literary ingredient that must be there—always! Almost
to the exclusion of everything else, it is the determinant of
the success or failure of a story, whether it’s told orally
or given written form, whether it’s directed to savages
or to tyrants—whether its intended audience is men-- or
women.
So what is a story? A story is a narrative of events arranged
in time sequence. (A story is not the same as a plot, which can
be discussed in later, if you wish.) A story is basically “And
then….and then…” (though not using those
words!) while playing on the reader’s curiosity and keeping
him in suspense. A story has a beginning, a middle, and an end,
keeps one thing happening after another, and gives the reader
a satisfactory conclusion.
So what makes a woman's story?
Lots of the romantic element --LOVE! Of course, sex is in there,
but the primary focus is on feelings. Romances are read
primarily (but not exclusively) by women, and make up forty percent
of the market! There is a formula to writing the traditional
romance, and lots of books address the specifics of this genre.
They talk about "sexual tension", the genres within the genre,
the plotting of romances, etc. Romances always have a happy ending
that satisfies the reader. When the female reader closes that
book, she wants to know that all is well in the world, and that
the hero and heroine will love one another and be happy forever--
and perhaps the same can happen to her.
So what is a man's story?
Lots of action! By nature men are physical, and so they're drawn
to danger: Man against man... Man against nature... In contrast
to romances, which are about feelings, these stories are about
survival. They constitute the "Male Adventure" genre heavily
represented by Louis Lamour, and Karl Mays. The recent movie "Master
and Commander" (drawn from a book) is a typical "Male Adventure" story.
You'll notice that these stories focus on action, not feelings,
as opposed to romances, which focus more on feelings, less on
action. Of course, the ultimate end-game in both cases is to
win: in Male Adventure that means to survive ,
and in Romance to win the girl/the guy . Both have elements
of danger, and both have suspense. Only the treatment is different.
Then there is the story that appeals to everyone-- that has enough
romance, and action, to make a good yarn and cut across genres
and genders. Here the voice--the way the story
is told-- becomes the critical difference between the telling
of women's stories and the telling of men's stories. Some writers
have a voice that appeals to both sexes. The voice is something
uniquely individual and difficult to assess. You know it when
you see it -- like you know a good dinner when you taste it.
Cooking requires just the right blend of spices, and in writing
the spices are adjectives and adverbs, or perhaps information,
and always the right kind of description.
If you find this aspect interesting, we can explore it in more
detail. Just let us know! If you are too shy to post, you're
welcom to contact me personally at RoseofYork2003@aol.com
If you're just starting out in Australia, like Wendy, have a
good day! And to those of you in the U.K., like Brian, Goodnight
!
Best,
Sandra
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| WendyJ |
| Posted: 03
Mar - 04:30 pm |
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Member No.: 61
Joined: 2-February 04
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Responding
to Brian's post...
<Needs to have empathy with the characters, and some
grounding in the culture or set of circumstances>
Brian – I utterly agree with you
here. You know – when I first started
writing DH – the question of whether
it was right or wrong to write in a gender
voice other than my own never came into
my head. What was important to me was that
I had a character with a story to tell.
Sir Tom became very real to me whilst I
wrote Dear Heart – it was a magical
journey into another time and place.
Like you say, Brian, our humanity is essentially the same. Men
and women both experience love and hate during this journey called
life. Through living life, most of us know what it is to have
a broken heart.
The poetry of Sir Thomas Wyatt tells of a man capable of great
love, often in pain through the grief of rejection of that love.
Historians debate whether he wrote poetry due to his involvement
with Anne Boleyn – but the more I wrote Tom’s tale
the more certain of that...
Best!
Wendy
--------------------
Wendy J. Dunn, author of DEAR
HEART, HOW LIKE YOU THIS? Awarded the ABPA 2003 Glyph for
Best Adult Fiction.
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| TrishA |
| Posted: 05
Mar - 02:23 pm |
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Group: Members
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| QUOTE |
| Do historical fiction writers owe
respect to the long dead? What
about when it gets in the way of
their story? The *Political Correctness*
of our own age – should
we apply that to our historical
fiction? Why are womenÂ’s
stories so important to many fiction
writers?
|
How is the political correctness of our age
different to the way women were or are often
presented in earlier ages? Neither is a completely
true representation of a woman's life - especially
an 'ordinary' woman's life.
While modern pc-ism probably shouldn't be attached to historical
figures - historical figures [fiction or otherwise] should still
fit into the context of the culture they operate in. However,
'pc' [and I abhor this term btw] should be used in the everyday
subtle language that the writer lives in. And that's not to mean
modern terminology which would be out of place but the gentle
nuances that give a broader picture of humanity [inclusive of
both genders] rather than the more common unbalanced approach.
And the deeper view that goes beyond romance and action and right
into what is really going on.
I'm not sure I'm making a whole lot of sense. It's early and
I've already been up for a couple of hours and feeling a little
foggy. I only know that when I write I strive to use balanced
language and that in that balance a more realistic truth comes
out.
Cheers
Trish |
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| Tamara
Mazzei |
| Posted: 08
Mar - 07:08 pm |
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TrishA
asks:
| QUOTE |
| How is the political correctness
of our age different to the way
women were or are often presented
in earlier ages? Neither is a completely
true representation of a woman's
life - especially an 'ordinary'
woman's life. |
While I agree that neither is a true representation
of a woman's life, I also think it's a critical
issue for authors writing about people who
lived in other times, especially when it
concerns something that modern culture has
condemned, but was a reality in an historical
character's life.
I think PCness (sorry; it is the best shorthand I can think of)
also cuts both ways. i.e., in the sense that many view women
of past eras as powerless, yet that isn't a completely accurate
picture either. e.g., I found records of a medieval woman who
purchased several large long-bows to defend her castle, even
though her husband was in the vicinity and not incapacitated
(he was acting as a justice of the king). It's the sort of incident,
that when described in fiction, is criticised for reflecting
a modern world-view, rather than one appropriate for the era.
I think political correctness can get in the way with things
like this because it's too easy to decide the author is trying
to make the character into a proto-feminist. IMO, anything that
plays too far on a stereotype lessens the depth of the characters
authors strive to create.
My two cents.
~Tamara |
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| BrianW |
| Posted: 09
Mar - 11:52 am |
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Discussion Leader
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Member No.: 60
Joined: 1-February 04
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Tamara's
point is interesting. To my mind it throws
up the advantage of writing about a real
person and using historical evidence. If
you can ground your character's action on
fact, then no one can accuse her of doing
something no medieval woman could have done.
I have a case in mind - Isabelle, Countess
of Warwick. (Constance of York's daughter.)
Isabelle basically ran Warwick's English
affairs (and her own) for years while
he was away fighting and ruling in France.
Occasionally she visited him, or he visited
her, but mostly she was on her own, running,
from age 23, what in modern terms was a
massive business corporation. She could
not get him on the mobile or send an e-mail
if she had a problem.
Men, even powerful men, needed working partners. The Paston women
are an easily accessible example. They had to defend their houses,
get writs off sheriffs, order munitions, undertake local dioplomacy
- whatever it took. These women were (legally) virtual chattels.
In reality they were significant managers/executives at the least.
The sources are there to provide writers with lots of inspiration
- and factual grounding - without wandering off into anachronisms.
Brian |
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| TrishA |
| Posted: 09
Mar - 01:28 pm |
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| QUOTE |
| I think PCness (sorry; it is the
best shorthand I can think of)
also cuts both ways. i.e., in the
sense that many view women of past
eras as powerless, yet that isn't
a completely accurate picture either. |
S'okay - dislike the longhand form as well.
At any rate, I completely agree with you.
I was thinking more along the lines of language
myself. It is not 'pc' to write the truth
and I've read of many instances where women
have played a pivotal role in their community,
business and in ruling. This should never
be hidden. I've also read many case studies,
purported history where wonders if there
were any women around at all... but that's
another topic, I believe.
Cheers
Trish |
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| Clawler |
| Posted: 10
Mar - 03:41 pm |
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Joined: 10-March 04
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In
reply to Sandra's post, I absolutely love
historical novels. Some authors are better
than others in doing their research and take
longer to write a novel than, for example,
Nora Roberts. I would like historical accuracy
in a novel, but I don't think that absolute
accuracy is really possible or realistic.
If the story really interests me, then I'll
do my own research for more information.
Some of the authors I highly recommend and applaud in the medieval
historical genre are Dorothy Dunnett, Elizabeth Chadwick, Isolde
Martyn, some of Barbara Erskine's works and Sharon Kay Penman.
I have found that these writers' stories appeal to both men and
women, and include real people from the era (or focus on real
people, such as Elizabeth Chadwick's The Winter Mantle and Sharon
Kay Penman's Here Be Dragons, The Sunne in Splendour, etc.).
Some are more accurate in their historical content than others,
but it doesn't detract from the novel and I admire their substantive
research, even if the story is only based in theory (the actual
facts are not known--and may never be known).
I also watched a program on HBO recently called "Iron Jaw Angels" dealing
with the beginnings of women's rights in the early 1900s which
was quite fascinating and led me to research more on this subject.
Again, it is based on real people and the trials and tribulations
they went through in their campaign. Very moving.
So, I just want to thank all those wonderful authors that open
up another world for us and encourage us readers to dig into
our history.
Cathie Lawler |
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| Sandra
Worth |
| Posted: 15
Mar - 11:13 pm |
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Discussion Leader
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Posts: 4
Member No.: 62
Joined: 4-February 04
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Cathy
writes: << I would like historical
accuracy in a novel, but I don't think that
absolute accuracy is really possible or realistic.
If the story really interests me, then I'll
do my own research for more information. >>
Cathy,
First, let me apologize for the delay in replying to your very
interesting post. I didn't receive the usual notification that
a post had been made to this topic.
You're right about absolute historical accuracy being impossible.
Only the people who lived that moment or that event know what
really happened. All we can do is surmise from what facts have
survived the centuries what the truth might have been.
That applies to historians and their textbooks as well as to
novelists and their novels. What distinguishes a good historical
from those not so good is exactly what you say above: a good
historical makes you want to know more about the person, the
event, the subject, or the time period it addresses. To achieve
that, it must cover history in an interesting, readable way,
and not the way a textbook would! (If you'd wanted a textbook,
you wouldn't have picked up a novel).
I first became interested in the medieval world when I read Katherine
by Anya Seton at the age of eleven. That book has always been
my personal standard because the author breathed such life into
that period and those historical figures, that the medieval world
became a life-long fascination for me.
So we agree absolutely on these points.
Sandra |
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| mnewton56 |
| Posted: 20
Mar - 07:03 pm |
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PenmanReview
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Brian
said:
If you can ground your character's action on
fact, then no one can accuse her of doing something
no medieval woman could have done.
Exactly! Brian, I think this is a telling point, to which Tamara
and others have alluded. And while, of course, I wouldn't expect
the novelist to interrupt his/her story with a footnote on the
source, this is what I feel belongs in an author's note. As I
think Sharon Kay Penman has written, some of the events which
actually happened and are reliably chronicled, are stranger than
anything an author might dream up.
Best regards,
Mary N. |
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| WendyJ |
| Posted: 20
Mar - 11:35 pm
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Discussion Leader
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Member No.: 61
Joined: 2-February 04
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I so agree, Mary - fact is so often stranger
than fiction! Human beings have never liked being boxed in – we break and
push at barriers all the time, in small and big ways.
Good thing too that most of us enjoy reading an author's note at the end of an
historical novel!
Another interesting point – well, I find it very interesting! There is
also the factor of serendipity, which seems so common to writers of fiction -
whether it is do with the actual act of the writing craft, or things that happen
related to our stories in our day-to-day life.
The best times for me as a writer is when my characters become “alive,” take
control of the story, and I go adventuring with them.
I remember I planned a particular scene for my character Tom Wyatt, only to find
him taking the reins away from me - yet again- when I wrote it up. Things then
happened I hadn’t planned, nor thought of, on a conscious level, not at
all. When I went hunting for the historical facts, I found Tom totally in the
right; that’s not the first or only time in my writing life I’ve
heard the theme music of the Twilight Zone in the background!
Of course, it is possible I may have read the *fact* years ago, and had forgotten
it, only to have this *fact* emerge at the exactly right moment. But I really
believe it more than just this. It is all extremely interesting...
Sorry I’ve been away from posting here. I have lots of excuses – my
seven-years-old son came down with one of his regular chest and ear infections
(he's all better now!), and I’ve been working hard with my publisher on
a new edition of my first novel for June. I've also busier than usual over at
SuiteU - where I've just been appointed as the Dean of its History and Politics
campus. I'm a little exhausted...
I have some lovely news to share about Dear Heart...my novel has been published
for over a year as part of my publisher's POD publishing stable at Metropolis
Ink, but he now wants it over in End Table books, the *traditional* publishing
stable he started last year. Sandra Worth’s great novel “Love and
War” is already there – now a stall's being prepared for Dear Heart.
Nice one – especially has the new edition will include DH's Glyph Award
on its cover. For me, the loveliest thing is that the new edition includes a
*teaser* for my new novel on Catherine of Aragon! He sent its prologue back to
me with “Scheduled for publication in 2005.” The best encouragement
ever!!
Hope to have more time to *talk* this week!
Wendy
--------------------
Wendy J. Dunn, author of DEAR
HEART, HOW LIKE YOU THIS? Awarded the ABPA 2003 Glyph for Best Adult Fiction. |
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